Welcome to Simtropolis
|
Topic Title: The New Anarchists Topic Summary: or What can we do with the civil-disobedient who use extreme violence? Created On: Oct-31-2009 11:38 PM Status: Post and Reply |
||
 Search Topic |
Topic Tools
|
#1638349
Oct-31-2009 11:38 PM
| It is truly a small world these days. In the past, news travelled slowly, but now the electronic media ensure that anyone who cares to know about some violent piece of civil disobedience can know about it within minutes of the occurence. Can the global village tolerate this behavior anymore? And if not, what shall we do? I don't intend this to be an endless debate over the properties and prices of freedoms. Let us take another tack altogether, and express our feelings about such things as:
|
 People who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
Visit the New Moose Factory
No longer young and foolish, just foolish |
#1638362
Nov-01-2009 12:14 AM
| "An eye for an eye". That's reasonable, since you took ones life and yours should be taken too if you done something like terrorist attacks. There has to be a stronger government to keep control and possibly laws the be passed conerning about these actions. |
| Visit Cities United at the new CJ section! Many cities in one CJ! http://bennyburg.myminicity.com/env For the advisors stop popping up bennyburg.myminicity.com/sec Get rid the grid http://bennyburg.myminicity.com/tra For more transportation options http://bennyburg.myminicity.com For more BATs http://bennyburg.myminicity.com/ind For more lots |
#1638438
Nov-01-2009 01:13 AM
| The trouble with "eye for an eye" is it does nothing to prevent people on rampages with no regard for the consequences. They do not fear the punishment whether it's decided by the state or themselves. You're right, these types of things need to be prevented rather than merely discouraged. |
|
#1638604
Nov-01-2009 11:46 AM
| A lot depends on where/how the person is apprehended. When someone is caught locally by the police, they're a criminal and things must proceed as such with civilian trial, etc. When someone is captured overseas by troops, then they're an enemy combatant and must be tried by military tribunal. Either way, they have a right to a trial and fair treatment. Only upon conviction can we discuss punishment. And that's up to the judge... That said.... Terrorism ≠ Anarchism. Indeed, these Al Qaeda types are downright Authoritarian in philosophy, wanting strict sharia law, enforcement of Muslim ideals, established religion, etc. Not all Anarchists are Terrorists, either (I daresay most are not). Do bear in mind that Mahatma Ghandi was an Anarchist... After all, selfish "every man for himself, rob, kill, rape, whatever you please" Anarchy and communal "everyone works together but no one is in charge" Anarchy are two very different things. |
 Rank: super fighting robot. Mission: fiiiighting to saaave.... the world! Who wants a cookie? Take one! Cookie Cookie Cookie Cookie Cookie Cookie Only the special awesome people can read this. |
#1638689
Nov-01-2009 02:26 PM
It is truly a small world these days. In the past, news travelled slowly, but now the electronic media ensure that anyone who cares to know about some violent piece of civil disobedience can know about it within minutes of the occurence. Well, near-universal access of information concerning events works in many ways. I was not aware that violent acts which infringe on personal rights are tolerated by "the global village" (and by this, I take it that you mean the community which practices a version of UN-sponsored ideology).
The acts which you outline happen to be personal rights infringement of some variety (body, property, et. al.). The perpetrators of such acts should be dealt with by whatever entity governs the place by means of a humane and fair trial, and such sentencing as may be warranted by the act. Clearly these acts should be criminalized in the law, but I also believe we should take a good look at the underlying factor behind these crimes. Is it economic, poltiical, philosophical, or psychogical? It depends on the specific crime, of course, but there usually is a single prevalent factor. Once we figure out what factor underlies these acts, we need to decide first: can it be improved, be it by state or popular action, and secondly: how it can be improved. If we improve these circumstances, these acts will be reduced in number. "An eye for an eye". That's reasonable, since you took ones life and yours should be taken too if you done something like terrorist attacks. The one thing about the death sentence is, number one, it is state-sponsored, cold-blooded murder, and number two, it is irreversible. If you kill someone under a sentence, and later it is found he is innocent, the sentence cannot be reversed, and also you've just murdered an innocent man. Contrast that to imprisonment -- if he is found innocent, you can simply release him. Also, in suicide attacks, there is no person you can punish, so eye for an eye sentencing only increases the suicide motivation, and thus will increase the damage of the attacks. Add to that that there are people who simply don't care about implications, and you'll just have to put people in prison longer and kill more people than you would have otherwise. In America, the results of such tough sentencing, especially in the "War on Drugs" (which is really a war on liberty), has been seen in terms of a population boom in prisons, which costs a lot of money to maintain, and furthermore, does not cut down on crime at all. We can see from here that tough punishment, though it may in some cases be warranted, will not solve problems, it will only make them worse. Curing the underlying motivations for violence will mitigate crimes at the source, and this is the most logical approach. After all, selfish "every man for himself, rob, kill, rape, whatever you please" Anarchy and communal "everyone works together but no one is in charge" Anarchy are two very different things. Glad you pointed that out. Anarchist views are very heterogenous, because the only thing which unites them is what they are not, not what they are. |
|
|
#1638906
Nov-01-2009 09:42 PM
It is truly a small world these days. In the past, news travelled slowly, but now the electronic media ensure that anyone who cares to know about some violent piece of civil disobedience can know about it within minutes of the occurence. Can the global village tolerate this behavior anymore? And if not, what shall we do? I don't intend this to be an endless debate over the properties and prices of freedoms. Let us take another tack altogether, and express our feelings about such things as:
Let's take a hack on these issues, for example, and try to find a consensus on what actions should be taken by the body public, including some modifications to codes if necessary. 1. I truly think eventualy the modereates in Islam will take over, when it starts to get truly out of hand and the average Muslum does not support these activitys any longer, throwing thier sons and daughters away for no reason, weather they are the bombers or the victims or both dont matter, eventualy the people will tire of it and demand change. The IRA fell apart when the people they were supposedly fighting for said enough is enough. 2. Shooting rampages should be dealt with as they happen. Prosocuted acording to local laws assuming the shooter dont take his own life. Personaly i dont think they should ever release the identities of these people, removes the incentive to become famous in this fashion. Its a very sticky problem this since it seems to me the ones who do this sort of thing generaly have some type of emotional problem.So those issues have to be adressed how ever you would do that. |
| Stupidity Should Always be Painfull The only thing that helps me maintain my slendergrip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes. Misses Sporeum.com  |
#1638923
Nov-01-2009 09:59 PM
| The only way to totally prevent these things is with a completely authoritarian police state, and we certainly don't want anything remotely close to 1984's Oceania anytime soon. Best idea: better education for the masses and improved response techniques for the authorities. Perhaps the thought that a SWAT team can be on you in under 5 minutes would deter the typical gunman or lunatic. |
Self-Proclaimed Unofficial Simtropolis Moderator |
#1638951
Nov-01-2009 10:25 PM
| I don't believe I said anything about Muslims. The personal or national slant of some of these replies is interesting. Now, as for radical "Islamic" suicide bombers, the best punishment for them is to gather what remains of the body and bury it in a pigskin. This sends the perpetrator straight to Iblis in Gehenna without benefit of self-renewing virgins. We can use the "tenets" of the faith against them by guaranteeing that this will be done. |
People who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
Visit the New Moose Factory
No longer young and foolish, just foolish |
#1639152
Nov-02-2009 07:54 AM
The only way to totally prevent these things is with a completely authoritarian police state, and we certainly don't want anything remotely close to 1984's Oceania anytime soon. Best idea: better education for the masses and improved response techniques for the authorities. I wholehartedly agree with that. I alluded in my post that there are some times where the state cannot legitimately act to prevent crimes (the totalitarian state you referenced). However, the people can always act on their own to treat underlying causes of bombings, especially the psychological and philosophical components I referenced. The state has no business interfering in psychology and philosophy, but the people can influence that in some cases. Personaly i dont think they should ever release the identities of these people, removes the incentive to become famous in this fashion. First, I don't think most people who go on shooting rampages do it for fame. Secondly, I don't like your proposal, since I'm always uncomfortable and suspicious of the state keeping secrets from the people that they are supposed to serve. Now, as for radical "Islamic" suicide bombers, the best punishment for them is to gather what remains of the body and bury it in a pigskin. This sends the perpetrator straight to Iblis in Gehenna without benefit of self-renewing virgins. We can use the "tenets" of the faith against them by guaranteeing that this will be done. Have you never heard of wills? What if the bomber has one, and dictates that he will be buried in a certain manner? Since he definently owns himself, he has the right to dictate how he will be buried. Your proposal will violate that, in the name of deterring crime, which is the same old track that the Americans have been on for years, moving ever-closer to fulfilling the predictions of George Orwell. |
|
|
#1639183
Nov-02-2009 10:00 AM
Interesting...I'm not sure exactly how is it that either the victims or the State are obligated to carry out the last will of a suicide bomber, even with regards to the ceremonial arrangements of the dead bomber's body. Incineration after the forensic autopsy seems perfectly suitable to me, rather than some will-dictated honorary ritual to be followed later by a radical pilgrimage shrine. |
#1639251
Nov-02-2009 02:41 PM
|
I think this is a really deep issue, the bad guys won't be defeated until their support base is eroded one way or another. I'm not advocating liberal guilt here, just stating the facts. I don't know how familiar anyone here is of the Shining Path in Peru, but their rise and fall was from the bottom up. Originally, the rural poor, people discriminated against and kept out of the formal economy, were easily manipulated by the radical group, and it spread like wildfire. But then over time, the poor turned against it because of the brutal violence but also because they did not support communism or the leftist agenda especially when the indigenous population got tough, and more promises of inclusive economy policies began. Only then did the authorities eventually gain control of the situation and were able to really cripple it by capturing the leader. |
| In the game of chess, you must never let your opponents see your pieces. The rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards.... Checkmate. -Zapp Brannigan |
Edited: 11/02/2009 at 02:58 PM by hamsterTK
#1639626
Nov-03-2009 01:57 AM
| Agreed. Too bad it took the Soviet Union so long to crash, and that there are still ghosts of it about. Grass roots decline is the answer to all of these ills, but meanwhile, how long must we put up with all this? |
People who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
Visit the New Moose Factory
No longer young and foolish, just foolish |
#1639895
Nov-03-2009 03:35 PM
A lot depends on where/how the person is apprehended. When someone is caught locally by the police, they're a criminal and things must proceed as such with civilian trial, etc. When someone is captured overseas by troops, then they're an enemy combatant and must be tried by military tribunal. No, that is incorrect. When someone is captured overseas, then they fit into one of two categories... legitimate opposition or enemy combatant. Barbarossa EDIT: And I am sooo tired of hearing about 1984. Yes, yes, acknowledge it all you want, but, jeez, it was a book and made up to be far more than it is. Might as well watch The Road Warrior 50,000 times and discuss the symbolism of war over oil. |
| Build a better man trap and the rats will beat a path to your door - Rats, from
Transnational Speedway League, by Clutch Official Clutch Website A Lie will travel across the world before the Truth has put its boots on. - An Old Saying The Truth has a Liberal bias. - Anonymous A red sky at night is a sailor's delight, A red sky in the morning gives a sailor warning. - An Old Saying, yet to be proven untrue |
#1643319
Nov-08-2009 07:05 PM
EDIT: And I am sooo tired of hearing about 1984. Yes, yes, acknowledge it all you want, but, jeez, it was a book and made up to be far more than it is. Might as well watch The Road Warrior 50,000 times and discuss the symbolism of war over oil. 1984 was a warning against giving the government too much power over the people, and it is pertinent to this discussion. |
|
|
|
Simtropolis
» Simtropolis Social Forum » Current Events
»
The New Anarchists
|
Topic Tools |
2002 - 2009 Simtropolis.com
Many Cities, One Community
www.sc3000.com
SimCity 2000
SC Urban Renewal Kit
Cities XL
SimCity 4 Deluxe
SimCity Societies
Live Chat (13 users)
