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Topic Title: I need to talk to someone on the NAM team! Topic Summary: Does this topic even need a summary? Created On: Nov-03-2009 05:33 PM Status: Post and Reply |
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#1639963
Nov-03-2009 05:33 PM
| I appologize for barging a topic into here, but I am fed up with looking for answers. Here is my story. So I got SimCity 4 two or so years ago. I discover Simtropolis about 8 months ago. I downloaded the June 2009 NAM a few days ago. And that's where I got problems. I KNOW I installed it correctly. No problems there. But when I went to try it out on my largest city (156,000 people) I had problems. I had what I like to refer to as a Job Crisis. Suddenly 50,000 people could not get to work. I tried quitting and coming back a lot, and finally waited it out until all of the jobless people abandoned my city. I demolished all of the abandoned buildings and tried to regrow, but the sudden loss in population KILLED my demand and I was not happy. (I have gotten it back to 140,000 people for anyone who cares.) I decided to consult all of the ReadMe and support files included with the installer. Then I figured out that the traffic simulator options changed the capacities and speed limits of transit networks, and did all of this other stuff I did not like the sound of. At this point I said, "WHOAH!! Hang on!" I decided to consult expert advice. Apparently the NAM team does not want to be bothered. I don't blame them, but I just can't get help. If you are reading this and know (or happen to be) someone who is connected with the Network Addon mod, please help me or send that person my way. Here's what I chose to include in the install: One Way Arrow reduction, turn lanes for Avenue and Road, everything else important (but NOT underground rail), and the Perfect Pathfinding (with standard stats) Traffic Simulator. My questions include: What do you think happened with my city? Does the Perfect Pathfinding (Standard) increase the capacity for my roads, streets, and other transit networks? If so, . what else does it do besides help my Sims choose better work routes and improve commute time? Is there a Traffic simulator that simply helps pathfinding? I have already upgraded so many of my networks that if . streets suddenly hold 1,000 cars I will be wasting many roads. I don't want that kind of a change! Thank you for taking the time to read this whole entire long, boring message. Please help! |
| A penny saved is another one to lose in the couch. |
#1640059
Nov-03-2009 07:51 PM
Apparently the NAM team does not want to be bothered. I am a member of the NAM Team, and I can say that we check here regularly and check for tech support requests. I've not seen any record of your issues before now, and I'm not sure how you've gotten that impression. There are some areas that we check more than others (like this board and Modding-Transit Networks), so unless your subject line grabbed someone's attention, it's possible it might have been overlooked. What do you think happened with my city? There are a lot of possible explanations, and I'll need to ask you a few questions myself so as to give you the best answer possible: -Are you using the Windows or MacOS version of the NAM? -Which side of the road do cars in your city drive on--right or left? -Have you installed any other modifications that might change the game's traffic functionality? -The traffic plugin you've installed is located in your My Documents\SimCity 4\Plugins\Network Addon Mods\Plugins folder, and the filename begins with "NetworkAddonMod_TrafficPlugin_", followed by the traffic simulator design (A, B, C_Standard, D_BetterPathfinding, E_PerfectPathfinding or Z) and the capacity of that design. It should be "NetworkAddonMod_TrafficPlugin_E_PerfectPathfinding_Standard.dat" given the information you've given. If it's not, that may explain things to an extent. Does the Perfect Pathfinding (Standard) increase the capacity for my roads, streets, and other transit networks? No, it does not. It is identical to the default Maxis simulator with regards to speeds and capacities. Is there a Traffic simulator that simply helps pathfinding? Yes, and unless there's some unforeseen error in your installation or a conflicting file somewhere, you've installed it. The only difference between the Maxis Simulator and the "Perfect Pathfinding_Standard" (also known as Simulator E) is that the Pathfinding Heuristic value has been dropped from 0.09 to 0.003, which increases the accuracy of the traffic simulation. Given the information I currently have from your post, I think one of two things are happening: a) the game was adjusting to the improved pathfinding. It can take a number of "in-game months" for a city to adjust to a new simulator plugin. Normally, though, you don't see 50,000 people instantly loose their jobs during that adjustment, which leads me to believe there's something else afoot. I will also add that if you plan on using the Rural Highway Mod (RHW) at any point, you'll need to change to a different simulator option. Ditto with the proposed Network Widening Mod (NWM) and Turning Lane Extension Pieces (TuLEPs). Hope that answers some questions, and sorry for the wait.  -Alex (Tarkus) |
 NAM Team Member Questions about the NAM and its various plugins? See my NAM FAQ. Major RL through October-November . . . may be a bit scarce. |
#1640280
Nov-04-2009 01:43 AM
| Moving from General Discussion to Modding - Transit Networks. |
Open the mind and... |
#1640609
Nov-04-2009 05:55 PM
| I am also a member of the NAM Team. I agree with everything that Alex says, although I would like to elaborate on one point he made. Changing traffic simulators should normally never cause any job loss, even during the adjustment period (which may be as long as eight years or more). Any job loss experienced during this period would be due to the properties of the new traffic simulator, and not the process of changing. I would also like to offer an additional suggestion. The Perfect Pathfinding simulators included with the June 2009 NAM all allowed a maximum of three minutes for the Sims to get from their homes to their jobs - the same as the original Maxis simulator. Perfect Pathfinding is extremely helpful, but in the face of that kind of limit, you can still get major traffic problems. I would recommend that you rerun the NAM Installer and select Simulator Z (Low). (Do not pick the Park & Ride version.) All versions of Simulator Z use Perfect Pathfinding, but they use a commute time limit that is high enough so that it will never interfere with normal city commuting. If Simulator Z doesn't solve your problem for you, then it is very unlikely that your problem is caused by the traffic simulator. |
#1642055
Nov-06-2009 05:58 PM
| Thank you both a ton. I didn't realize it would be this easy to get help.
Even though you answered most of my questions already, Alex, here are the things you wanted to know (and more): -My computer runs on Windows XP. I installed the Windows version of the NAM. -My cars drive on the right (the default). -I had at one point installed a version of Better Pathfinding (I don't remember who the author was). The truth is, I was skeptical at first about the NAM. I thought it sounded like to much of a risk to make all of those changes to my game. So when I found the most important feature of it without any of the other things it was a Hallelujah moment. When I did decide to install the NAM, however, I had read all the warnings and made sure I deleted the Commute Time modifier permanently. There should be no other features in my Plugins folder that could react with the NAM. -I checked and the Perfect Pathfinding file was there. The problem really shouldn't be with files or the installer, I am not exactly dumb when it comes to computers (but not a genius like you guys ; ) ) and I double checked that everything installed okay. -I have (what I think is) the original American version of Deluxe Edition, with no modifications (excluding a few dozen STEX downloads) I admit that I didn't read up on the Traffic Simulators before installing. That'll teach me. But after I had this problem the first place I turned to was all of those ReadMe files. (Don't worry, I read the 'Read Me First' and the actual ReadMe at least). When I didn't find help there, that's when I asked. But anyway, Simulator Z sure sounds like the ultimate choice. And I sure would like to be able to get the RHW mod. The only problem I have with it is those speed limit and capacity modifiers. I don't plan to have a Bazillion people in my city. Not even a million. In fact, if you can point me to a simulator that keeps speed limits, capacities, and general functions of my transit networks the same BUT gives me a MUCH smarter traffic system (and maybe a wee bit higher commute tolerance; plenty of people take more than an hour to get to work and don't complain about it) then please let me know. (Or it sure would be nice if you guys took custom orders!  )
One last thing... since I didn't have the NAM for a while I sure had some pretty sad commute times in all of my cities, and they all teetered on the brink of a crisis. Maybe all it took was this little upset to cause disaster. And sorry about the 'don't want to be bothered' thing. Whoever wrote the FAQ part of the ReadMe said something about how he wrote this so all us players didn't have to go poking around to get questions answered in the introduction. I also thought that if you took messages, your virtual mailboxes would be more overcrowded than a single Maxis stats street connecting New York and Chicago. Thanks again you guys. I don't know what I'd do if someone didn't waste their time searching the forums for questions ;D. |
| A penny saved is another one to lose in the couch. |
#1642396
Nov-07-2009 05:42 AM
| That is a pickle; i am not part of the NAM team but i do know quite alot on how it works. My only guess is that you downloaded a corrupted file, these things can happen. All you have to do is download it again and reinstall.
Did you put any nam objects in the city like interchanges and such? If you did were they on main arteries? You may have set them up wrong. Onto the RHW thing ya said. It sounds like you are saying that simulator Z will effect how the RHW works and that it will stop it functioning correctly. I can assure you it wont. The RHW is made to work in conjunction with NAM. Besides, i8 have Simulator Z and RHW and it works just fine :-D |
Get GOOGLE CHROME!! |
#1642429
Nov-07-2009 07:21 AM
But anyway, Simulator Z sure sounds like the ultimate choice. And I sure would like to be able to get the RHW mod. The only problem I have with it is those speed limit and capacity modifiers. I don't plan to have a Bazillion people in my city. Not even a million. In fact, if you can point me to a simulator that keeps speed limits, capacities, and general functions of my transit networks the same BUT gives me a MUCH smarter traffic system (and maybe a wee bit higher commute tolerance; plenty of people take more than an hour to get to work and don't complain about it) then please let me know. Wow, that's asking a lot, don't you think?  Lucky for you, Simulator Z Classic was posted on this board just minutes ago, and it does just what you're asking for.  |
#1642756
Nov-07-2009 05:01 PM
| No, I wasn't saying that I was worried that Simulator Z doesn't work with the RHW. I was saying that that is one of the reasons I was thinking about getting it, but I don't want some of it's features.
And thanks z1 for that link. I'll look at it now. And BTW, my city if fully recovered. I guess that I was right about the teetering on the brink of disaster thing. I am all the way up to 180,000 Sims now. Thanks for all of your guys' help anyway! |
| A penny saved is another one to lose in the couch. |
#1642767
Nov-07-2009 05:18 PM
| I saw the link...that's probably the most convenient thing that has ever happened in the history of the universe. But unfortunatley I'm a picky person. It kinda sounds like the capacities might even be LOWER. Don't want that at all. I think I'll stick to Perfect Pathfinding until I learn more. |
| A penny saved is another one to lose in the couch. |
#1642778
Nov-07-2009 05:33 PM
| On average, capacities are the same - that was the design goal. And due to its superior pathfinding compared to the Maxis simulator, it will support much bigger cities. While it provides plenty of challenge for small cities, I've had it support a city as large as two million with no problems. I'll give full details in the development thread in a little while. I would strongly recommend against the Perfect Pathfinding simulators, though. These are obsolete, and are retained largely for compatibility purposes. They also don't support the RHW, or the upcoming NWM. These simulators will most likely be removed from the NAM installer in the next release, or the one after that at the latest. |
#1642824
Nov-07-2009 07:32 PM
I saw the link...that's probably the most convenient thing that has ever happened in the history of the universe. But unfortunatley I'm a picky person. It kinda sounds like the capacities might even be LOWER. Don't want that at all. I think I'll stick to Perfect Pathfinding until I learn more. You might actually want Z Low in that case. There's a number of properties in "Perfect Pathfinding" that cause improper functionality and severely reduced capacities with a number of popular NAM add-ons, such as the RHW, the FLUPs (Flexible Underpasses), as well as the future NWM and TuLEPs (Turn Lane Extension Pieces). I'll outline those three properties below: -Network Capacities and Speeds The capacities and speeds of the Road, Avenue and One-Way Road networks were equalized in Simulators A, B, and Z, due to the fact that the proposed wider NWM networks are Road-based. As such, a 2-tile NWM network would have a disadvantage over a plain old Avenue. The theoretical disparity between a 2-tile NWM network and an Avenue under the Perfect Pathfinding simulator would be 3000, a 60% reduction. The same thing happens when trying to build a FLUPs tunnel for an Avenue, since all the FLUPs tunnel pieces are Road-based. -Congestion vs. Speed Curve In order to facilitate the "spreading" effect, necessary for even distribution across a multi-tile one-way network (the RHW-8 is a prime example), the first "speed" value must be greater than 1, and set to at least 1.2 to ensure proper functionality. (It's set to 1 in Perfect Pathfinding, under the threshhold). Otherwise, traffic will simply use one of the tiles, and only begin using the rest of the network once the other tile is completely red in the CongestionView. Not enabling spreading also can also cause strange automata behavior on these networks. Simulators A and Z have the first data couplet set to (0,1.3) while Simulator B has it set to (0,1.4). -Intersection and Turn Capacity Effect Any network with crossover paths as part of the base network will be affected by the first value in this property. As such, if this first value is set to a number less than 1, it will decrease the capacity of the override network below the standard per-tile for the base network (it's set to 0.7 in the Per). Simulators B and Z have this value set to 1.0, Simulator A has it set to 1.5. It's a bit technical, but I hope that explains things. -Alex (Tarkus) |
NAM Team Member Questions about the NAM and its various plugins? See my NAM FAQ. Major RL through October-November . . . may be a bit scarce. |
#1643354
Nov-08-2009 08:11 PM
| I kind of follow you. From what I understand, though, I shouldn't have any significant problems if I don't use the RHW (Oh well...I kinda liked the sound of it), FLUPs (I'll manage) and the NWM (I wasn't interested in that in the first place). I'll just sit around and wait for a mod that just makes my traffic smarter and commute times lower. Unless...do you think Simulator Z classic evens out road and avenue capacities/speed limits? And I guess I had better at least find out...what exactly are you guys planning with the Network Widening Mod? [added by tungston] Oh... I didn't even see your last post, z1. Thanks for the advice. And how the heck can you be using Z Classic, which just came out, in a city with 2 million people? Isn't reinstalling the whole NAM and trying that a bit risky? Oh, well, I guess you've probably had access to it for a while. I forget you guys are high up in the NAM team. Thanks again! Please use the edit fuctuction instead of making sequential replies. |
| A penny saved is another one to lose in the couch. |
Edited: 11/09/2009 at 01:09 AM by Simtropolis Moderator
#1643497
Nov-09-2009 05:21 AM
[added by tungston] Oh... I didn't even see your last post, z1. Thanks for the advice. And how the heck can you be using Z Classic, which just came out, in a city with 2 million people? Isn't reinstalling the whole NAM and trying that a bit risky? No, especially if you save a copy of your city first. If you do that, then there's really no risk at all. Also, you really don't need to reinstall the whole NAM, especially in this case; you just have to replace the traffic simulator file. I haven't created a Traffic Volume View for this simulator yet, though that's coming soon; in the mean time, the Standard one works very well with this simulator. |
#1643691
Nov-09-2009 04:58 PM
| Very true. I wrote that last one late at night so I wasn't thinking as much as usual. Same reason I didn't bother to combine my posts (thanks tungston for doing that).
Maybe I will try this Simulator Z Classic after all. And I won't ask any more questions; I get the hint that I've dragged what used to be a simple post on a little too long. Thanks again. |
| A penny saved is another one to lose in the couch. |
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